Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

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Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:20 am

I was reading an article this morning concerning OUR mental health. The crux of the article was that our distant ancestors most likely had fewer instances of mental health issues due in large part to less stress. Now certainly trying to keep a cave over your head and hunting wild boar were stressful but that was healthy stress. At any rate, one of the comments about the article struck me as sharing my view at the moment. Here it is in it's entirety.

I have developed a new World view to help with the stresses of life. I have come to the conclusion that my elected officials are ruining everything my Country stands for and my way of life. It is re writing the history and changing the traditions that make us great. I have concluded that there is a group of activists telling me one thing but it isn't the Truth. This Media of sycophantic sympathizers has spread so much misinformation that only the truly discerning can get to the Truth. I have concluded that I must vote out almost EVERYONE who is in Political office right now before the greatest Health Care system in the World is Politicized, every Bank decimated, every business/job regulated out of business. Not the "Hope and Change" anyone wanted. It is Truth that keeps me sane, the rest of the jargon, I ignore. If this doesn't drive Americans to their knees in Prayer, nothing will.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby Majik » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:59 am

I have to disagree with the writer, (and maybe you ) in that I thinnk our country needs a national health care system,and we need it NOW.
I can go along with most of the rest of that paragraph though.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:16 am

I absolutely oppose a national healthcare system Maj. My reasoning is this:
I feel that having a national system will require our value as productive humans in the population to be graded, if you will. Thusly, people with less "worth" will not receive the same benefits as those with more "worth". Having said that, I understand that we will of course be entitled to keep our healthcare insurance but at what cost? IMO this country needs a complete makeover in regard to healthcare, welfare, social security etc. I will probably be slammed when I say this but I do believe in Reaganomics...
I also believe, for example, that anyone receiving any type of welfare be subject to random drug testing and potentially relieved of assistance should they test positive. I think it should apply to criminals as well. Commit crimes=no assistance. I mean hell, I as a govt employee have to submit to random drug testing as a condition of employment....

...to be continued...
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby Majik » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:11 am

Pes,
Do you think that our value is not being graded at the moment?
Even without going into that argument, and of course you know I'm biased, but the current system is out of control.
I have had to declare bankrupcty mostly due to healthcare costs,and yet I know what I'm being charges is probably ten times the actual cost.
As a government employee, you get excellent health insurance.At least I am assuming you do, I know during my 10 years with the government myself and my kids did. I'd give anything to get that insurance again.

But the real bigger picture is this:"IMO this country needs a complete makeover in regard to healthcare, welfare, social security etc."
And this is 100% true. To be honest, I wonder if we as a nation can recover and become the country we used to be.

I am so torn because I am against government intervention in private citizens affairs, but at the same time the majority or the people don't have the intelligence and or morals to do the right things.

And while I see this in the younger generation, I also see it in "the baby boomers".

(to be continued)
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:36 am

I think I'm actually more with you than against you Majik. Although I still oppose socialized medicine for the reasons I stated. I really do think that if we the people allow that to happen we'll regret it. You're right I do have great health coverage and have to pay a couple hundred dollars a month for it. If you think about it, we have had socialized medicine all along what with so called "county' or public hospitals. So currently I have a choice of which hospital or physician handles my care although preferred providers give me a break on my deductable. If we go to a national plan, I bet my choices are going out the window and it will then be like choosing between Costco and Sams Club.

I certainly understand the position you are in Majik along with millions of others. I just don't even understand what exactly is being proposed. Go to barackobama.com and you get some ambiguous statements about what needs to be done but not HOW it's gonna be done. The HOW is what concerns me the most.

...to be continued...
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby Majik » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:07 am

You might find this interesting:
http://blog.flecksoflife.com/2009/07/19/the-hc-monstrosity/
While it's true you have a choice of hospitals in or out of your insurance plan,I'm more concerned about costs.
I think I posted once about the 150 THOUSAND dollar bill I got for 2 months of dialysis. This was before my wife got laid off and we still had her insurance.

But as we agree, this is about more than insurance and health care.
This "crackdown" on predatory credit lending and collection is a farce.

The bailouts are rediculous, and both Bush and Obama are to blame for those.

Government regulation? They should be focusing on the companies and corporations that are destroying America and bring them back in line.
F*cking allowing ANY companie to charge the ourrageous interest rates they charge is criminal. When I got sick I had a card with a 12% rate.
I got sick and missed ONE payment. The next month my rate went up to 28%.
I have to tell you, I had no guilt about not paying them when I went bankrupt.

People seem to think getting assistance from the government is easy..... while it vaires from state to state, for the most part it isn't.

And I do think we are probably more in agreement than not Pes, it's not the why, but the how.


By the way, I'm sure many of us know national halthcare is not a new concept, many nations throughout the world already have it in one form or another.
(to be continued)
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:13 pm

I think we've both made some good points on this Majik. The most important being how are WE going to get OUR country back on track. We are bombarded daily about going green, conserving resources, etc but what we really need to be focusing on is our current economic woe...before the US becomes a third world country. The cost of one space shuttle flight could cure a lot of woe ya know. Not to mention all of the myriad other ridiculous "projects" we humans have going on. Scuttle some of that crap, then we can fix the planet assuming Earth hasn't ridden itself of the human blight by then...
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby StrongMAD » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:48 pm

pesetas wrote: The cost of one space shuttle flight could cure a lot of woe ya know. Not to mention all of the myriad other ridiculous "projects" we humans have going on. Scuttle some of that crap, then we can fix the planet assuming Earth hasn't ridden itself of the human blight by then...


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v3 ... 5105a0.pdf

8:1 return on every dollar invested in NASA. For 1 dollar you put in, the economy gets 8 back.

Ridiculous, well, I disagree there, we should reach for the stars, we SHOULD push ourselves to our very limits, we should strive to be all that we possibly can be, not just to live an ordinary existence but to press ever onwards and see what's out there, examine the very universe that we live in. We should care about this more than big TVs or SUVs or other luxuries, but of course this is just an opinion.

But I can't see an argument about the 8:1 ROI you get with research dollars. In 1897 J J Thompson spent a lot of research money on investigating a similarly ridiculous project. He was looking for parts of an atom so small that they couldn't be seen. He found the electron, and a hundred years later the entire economy of the world runs on electronics.

If you want to fix your economy invest HEAVILY in research.

As for the green stuff, well, I'd kinda like to have a planet still capable of supporting human life when my kids grow up. But that's just me...
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby MacK » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:49 pm

pesetas wrote:The cost of one space shuttle flight could cure a lot of woe ya know.


Well, there I disagree. When you consider that the NASA budget is less than 1% ($16B) of the overall federal budget and that federal spending on social programs is about 98 times that ($1.5T), it tells me that scrapping the shuttle would likely do little to change anything in terms of social improvement. In fact, it is something to put what NASA accomplishes in perspective with such a small amount of funding. If we want to talk about cutting spending, let's talk defense. $609B in 2007... good grief. Especially when you consider that one stealth bomber is $2.2B, and we just randomly crash those sometimes. I wonder if they have collision insurance on those.

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/898/1

Seriously, when we put budget spending in perspective, we (the good ole USA) "is responsible for 45 per cent of the world total [defense spending], distantly followed by the UK, China, France, and Japan each with 4 to 5 per cent of the world share". That is what we have seriously got to get under control.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/ ... y-spending

Finally, on top of it all, we just need to do a better job as citizens to elect representation that is fiscally intelligent. Idiots like Bush, and now I wonder about Obama with the whole "bailout" plans, are just driving us into the ground. Maybe I should run for office... no more pork barrel if I were in charge.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby MacK » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:52 pm

StrongMAD wrote:If you want to fix your economy invest HEAVILY in research.


Hey, it works in Civilization!!!
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:16 pm

I knew that the NASA comment would stir you two up. We've been down this road before.

Not to be rude but are you guys blind? You can say all you want about receiving an 8 to 1 return on your research investment but what has that done for the poor in this country. I personally have worked for a quarter of century as a law enforcement officer in some of the poorest communites in this country. You know what these poor folks are doing lately with their Obama Hope shirts? They're using them as window washing rags. You ask any of these people I am referring to about their thoughts on Obama and scientific research and you'll be lucky to not get slapped down. As far as budgets and funding are concerned...it's not the amount that's being spent on social programs it's how it's being spent. I could give you examples of government waste, fraud and abuse that would make you shudder.

I don't need to surf the internet to find quotes about these things. I've seen it. I'm not saying to do away with the projects and research...by all means when this planet is finally done with us we'll need somewhere to go. We just need to get a grip on things and try to solve our IMMEDIATE problems. I figure the green thing can hold off a couple more years...

Listen to me ramble though...I also don't think we ever set foot on the moon either so obviously I'm a crackpot. Where the hell is Spooky when you need him?
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby StrongMAD » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:28 pm

It's given the poor 8 dollars worth of jobs for every 1 dollar spent. Or are you telling me that poor people don't have electronic devices, anything that uses a satellite (much more than you think) or even teflon on their pans? Do they feed their children baby food that uses the nutritional content NASA devised for astronauts (here's a hint, they do!) Do they drink water that's been purified, allowing eight times as much drinking water to come from the same sources as previously? Do they get tornado warnings? Earthquake proof buildings? Do the firefighters wear flame retardant suits, and have 4500 psi capable air tanks, doubling the time they can go into buildings without air?

What about breast cancer screening (laser), the modern pacemaker, composite materials used in car brakes that make the modern car safer than ever before at a fraction of the previous price? Did you ever wear a stab jacket with kevlar?

These are just a tiny tiny fraction of the effect that direct NASA research has had on our lives. And aside from that, 8:1 ROI -> More jobs -> more people employed. How is that not good for the poor of the country?

You think the green thing can hold off a few more years, fine. I see projections from climatologists that say it can't. I'm gonna go with their assessment.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:28 pm

By the way, here's a link to NASA's FY2010 budget request.

ENJOY!

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/345225main_FY_2010_UPDATED_final_5-11-09_with_cover.pdf
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:34 pm

Yeah Strong...I'm talking about 3rd world, dirt floor, poor right here in our country. Come take a ride with me sometime and I'll show you things you'd have never imagined. Yes, the people I'm talking about DO NOT enjoy many of the perks you mentioned.

Take a small chunk of that NASA budget request I just posted and use it the right way and it can make one hell of difference right now.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby Majik » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:50 pm

"no more pork barrel if I were in charge." Mack, you'd get my vote.


"I also don't think we ever set foot on the moon either " I'm thinking sarcasm here.


Pes, Can't we work on both problems at once? Getting the country right AND fixing some problems.

I know we have the poor you're talking about. And we have those that claim to be poor that abuse the system. Just last night the big news story was a medicaid fraud schemes aressts in 5 states I think.

Some good comments here today...let's keep the dialogue open!
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:58 pm

No Majik...I don't think we can work on both problems at once. I could kick myself because my political views are middle of the road and my anti-NASA tirade sounds so demo but I really think a lot of that research is based on a future that we're not going to have. We need to deal with the here and now. Even though I work for the gov doesn't mean I'm all for everything it does. Big GOV has gotten way too big IMO.

I also just have to say one more thing about this NASA stuff. I think that our country was moving along just fine in 1958 before NASA was created. Just a thought...perhaps we'd have made similar discoveries and advances without all this space non-sense...

If I offended anyone please understand that the waste and abuse I see daily is a very passionate subject to me...
Last edited by pesetas on Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby MacK » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:03 pm

Pes, I totally agree with you that a small dollar amount can do a lot for folks living in 3rd world country conditions. Taking from your budget link above, and feeding on my argument about defense spending, the space shuttle program in it's entirety is just north of the cost of one stealth bomber... A FRAKKING stealth bomber, whose sole purpose is seeking out and killing. Honestly, NASA isn't the place to be pulling funds - it's in our killing ambitions.

Also, I would love to say that giving these folks who are dirt poor some $$$$ to solve their problems is the answer, but the majority of them need something other than money. Many need medical help for mental illness, drug abuse help or psychological help. Most of them wouldn't know what to do with the help when they get it. Personally, the US is one of the few countries in the world where beyond medical/mental reasons, there is little excuse for living in the slums. I have been to many third world countries - when I come back to the US and hear a homeless guy complaining that his shelter doesn't have Cable TV, it just pissers me.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:07 pm

Um Mack...I never nor would I ever propose to just give these people money. They, forgive me, wouldn't know how to spend it and would be worse off going crazy with it.

The manner in which special program money is spent is the problem. Also like Majik said, all of the fraud going on, not just with the regular joe but with HMOs and insurance companies, etc.

When I'm king...everyone will be happy! :Jester:
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby StrongMAD » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:34 pm

pesetas wrote:Yeah Strong...I'm talking about 3rd world, dirt floor, poor right here in our country. Come take a ride with me sometime and I'll show you things you'd have never imagined. Yes, the people I'm talking about DO NOT enjoy many of the perks you mentioned.

Take a small chunk of that NASA budget request I just posted and use it the right way and it can make one hell of difference right now.


Yes, or invest it and spend 8 times as much later. I know what feels like the right choice for right now, but that kind of short term thinking is what lead us into this mess. The NASA budget is shamefully small. If you want society to turn around and not have this kind of poverty, invest in education and research. They really are the silver bullet. We don't cut a fraction of the R+D budget for healthcare to give it directly to poor people - why? Because it's better in the long run to invest the money and reap the rewards later.

We've got some grains. We can either eat them now and be fed for a day, or plant them and be fed for a year.
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Re: Modern caveman craves the TRUTH

Postby pesetas » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:41 pm

This was a good discussion...we should do this more often!

Oh and Mack...what kind of superpower would we be if we didn't have the supertoys to crash...er, play with? :UmmmHmm:
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